Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Jacob Needleman
...continued from part three
Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Krishnamurti: We are asking: "Can the consciousness empty itself of its content?" Not somebody else do it.
Needleman: That is the question, yes.
Krishnamurti: Not divine grace, the super-self, some fictitious outside agency. Can the consciousness empty itself of all this content? First see the beauty of it, sir.
Needleman: I see it.
Krishnamurti: Because it must empty itself without an effort. The moment there is an effort, there is an observer who is making the effort to change the content, which is part of consciousness. I don't know if you see that?
Needleman: I follow. This emptying has to be effortless, instantaneous.
Krishnamurti: It must be without an agent who is operating on it, whether an outside agent, or an inner agent. Now can this be done without any effort, any directive, which says, "I will change the content"? This means the emptying of consciousness of all will, "to be" or "not to be". Sir, look what takes place.
Needleman: I am watching.
Krishnamurti: I have put that question to myself. Nobody has put it. Because it is a problem of life, a problem of existence in this world. It is a problem which my mind has to solve: can the mind, with all its content, empty itself and yet remain mind, not just kind of floating about?
Needleman: It is not suicide.
Needleman: There is some kind of subtle, a couple of obvious drugs...
Krishnamurti: No, sir, that is too immature, childish. I have put the question. My answer is: I really don't know.
Needleman: That is the truth.
Krishnamurti: I really don't know. But I am going to find out, in the sense of not waiting to find out. The content of my consciousness is my unhappiness, my misery, my struggle, my sorrow, the images which I have collected through life, the frustrations, the pleasures, the fears, the agony, the hatred - that is my consciousness. Can all that be completely emptied? Not only at the superficial level but right through? - the so-called unconscious. If it is not possible, then I must live a life of misery, I must live in endless, unending sorrow. There is neither hope, nor despair, I am in prison. So the mind must find out how to empty itself of all the content of itself, and yet live in this world, not become a moron, but have a brain that functions efficiently. Now how is this to be done? Can it ever be done? Or is there no escape for man?
Needleman: I follow.
Krishnamurti: Because I don't see how to get beyond this, I invent all the gods, temples, philosophies, rituals. You follow? All the entertainment, all the muck comes in. Sorry! So I must find out. You understand, sir?
Needleman: I understand.
Krishnamurti: This is meditation - you follow? This is real meditation, not all the phony stuff. To see whether the mind - with the brain which has evolved through time, which is the result of thousands of experiences, the brain that functions efficiently only in complete security - whether the mind can empty itself and yet have a brain that functions like a marvelous machine. And also it sees love is not pleasure; love is not desire. When there is love there is no image; but I don't know what that love is. But I only want love as pleasure, sex and all the rest of it. There must be a relationship between the emptying of consciousness and the thing called love; between the unknown and the known, which is the content of consciousness.
Needleman: I am following you. There must be this relationship.
Krishnamurti: The two must be in harmony. The emptying and love must be in harmony. And it may be only love that is necessary and nothing else.
Needleman: This emptying is another word for love, is that what you are saying?
Krishnamurti: I am only asking what is love. Is love within the field of consciousness?
Needleman: No, it couldn't be.
Krishnamurti: Don't stipulate. Don't ever say yes or no; find out! Love within the content is pleasure, sexual, ambitious, you know, all that business. Then what is love? I really don't know. I won't pretend any more about anything. I don't know but I am going to find... There is some factor in this which I must find out. Whether the emptying of consciousness with its content is love, which is the unknown? What is the relationship between the unknown and the known? - not the mysterious unknown, not God and that business. We will come to God afterwards, if we go through all this. The relationship between the unknown, which I don't know, which may be called love, and the content of consciousness, which I know, (I may be unconscious of it, but I know, I can open it up and find out non-analytically) - so what is the relationship between the known and the unknown? And to move between the known and the unknown in harmony, is intelligence, isn't it?
Needleman: Absolutely, yes, I see that.
Krishnamurti: So I must find out, the mind must find out, how to empty its content. That is, have no image, therefore no observer. You understand, sir? The image means the past, or the image which is taking place now, or the image which I will project in the future. So no image, which means formula, idea, ideals, principles, all that implies image. Can there be no formation of image at all? You hurt me, and therefore I have an image of you, or you give me pleasure. So no image formation when you hurt me or give me pleasure.
Needleman: Is it possible?
Krishnamurti: Of course it is. Otherwise I am doomed.
Needleman: You are doomed. In other words I am doomed.
Krishnamurti: We are doomed. Is it possible when you insult me to be completely watchful, attentive, so that it doesn't leave a mark?
Needleman: I know what you mean.
Krishnamurti: When you flatter me - no mark. Then there is no image. So I have done it, the mind has done it: which is, no forming of image at all. If you don't form an image now, the past images have no place.
Needleman: I don't follow that. "If I don't form an image now...?"
Krishnamurti: The past images have no place. If you form an image, then you are related to it.
Needleman: You are connected to the past images. That is right.
Krishnamurti: But if you don't form it...
Needleman: Then you are free from the past.
Krishnamurti: See it! See it!
Needleman: Very clear.
Krishnamurti: So the mind can empty itself of images by not forming an image now. If I form an image now, then I relate it with past images. So consciousness, the mind, can empty itself of all the images by not forming an image now. Then there is space, not space round the center. And if one delves, goes into it much further, then there is something sacred, not invented by thought, which has nothing to do with any religion.
Needleman: Very clear, very clear. Thank you.
...Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
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