Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Jacob Needleman
Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Needleman: In your talks you have given a fresh meaning to the necessity for man to become his own authority. Yet cannot this assertion easily be turned into a form of humanistic psychology without reference to the sacred, transcendent dimension of human life on earth in the midst of a vast intelligent Cosmos? Must we not only try to see ourselves in the moment, but also as creatures of the Cosmos? What I am trying to ask about is this question of cosmic dimension.
Krishnamurti: As soon as we use that word "dimension", it implies space, otherwise there is no dimension, there is no space. Are we talking about space, outward space, endless space?
Krishnamurti: Or the dimension of space in us?
Needleman: It would have to be the latter, but not totally without the former, I think.
Krishnamurti: Is there a difference between the outer space, which is limitless, and the space in us? Or is there no space in us at all and we only know the outer space. We know the space in us as a center and circumference. The dimension of that center, and the radius from that center, is what we call that space.
Needleman: Inner space, yes.
Krishnamurti: Yes, inner space. Now if there is a center, the space must always be limited and therefore we divide the inner space from the outer space.
Krishnamurti: We only know this very limited space but we think we would like to reach the other space, have immense space. This house exists in space, otherwise there could be no house, and the four walls of this room make its space. And the space in me is the space which the center has created round itself. Like that microphone...
Needleman: Yes, center of interest.
Krishnamurti: Not only center of interest, it has its own space, otherwise it couldn't exist.
Needleman: Yes, right.
Krishnamurti: In the same way, human beings may have a center and from that center they create a space, the center creates a space round itself. And that space is always limited, it must be; because of the center, the space is limited.
Needleman: It is defined, it is a defined space, yes, which is limited.
Krishnamurti: When you use the words "cosmic space"...
Needleman: I didn't use the words "cosmic space"; I said cosmic, the dimension of the Cosmos. I wasn't talking about outer space and trips to the planets.
Krishnamurti: So we are talking of the space which the center creates round itself, and also a space between two thoughts; there is a space, an interval between two thoughts.
Krishnamurti: And the center having created that space round itself, there is the space outside the limit. There is a space between thinking, between thoughts; and also a space round the center itself, and the space beyond the barbed-wire. Now what is the question, sir? How to expand space? How to enter a different dimension of space?
Needleman: Not how to but...
Krishnamurti: ...not how to. Is there a different dimension of space except the space round the center?
Needleman: Or a different dimension of reality?
Krishnamurti: Space, we are talking about that for the moment, we can use that word. First I must see very clearly the space between two thoughts.
Needleman: The interval.
Krishnamurti: This interval between two thoughts. Interval means space. And what takes place in this interval?
Needleman: Well, I confess that I don't know because my thoughts overlap all the time. I know there are intervals, there are moments when this interval appears, and I see it, and there is freedom there for a moment.
Krishnamurti: Let's go into this a bit, shall we? There is space between two thoughts. And there is space which the center creates round itself, which is the space of isolation.
Needleman: All right, yes. That is a cold word.
Krishnamurti: It is cutting itself off. When I become important, I am considering myself as important, with my ambition, with my frustrations, with my angers, with my sexuality, with my growth, with my frustration, with my hope, my reaching Nirvana, my meditation.
Needleman: Yes, that is isolation.
Krishnamurti: That is isolation. My relation with you is the image of that isolation, which is that space. Then having created that space there is space outside the barbed-wire. Now is there a space of a totally different dimension? That is the question.
Needleman: Yes, that embraces the question.
...Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
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