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Meditation J Krishnamurti The Role of The Teacher Inner Space Tradition & Dependence Meditation Tao Te Ching Dhammapada Buddhist Classics
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Krishnamurti
The Role Of The Teacher
Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Jacob Needleman
...continued from part five
Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Needleman: This truth is absolute truth. The moment one experiences it one says, "Yes!" But one's experience is also that one forgets this.
Krishnamurti: Forget!
Needleman: By that I mean one continually tries to change it.
Krishnamurti: Forget it, and pick it up again.
Needleman: But in this discussion - whatever you intend - there is help coming from this discussion. I know, as much as I know anything, it could not happen without the help that is between us. I could look at those hills and maybe have this non-judging, but it wouldn't be important to me; I wouldn't know that that is the way I must look for salvation. And this, I think, is a question one always wants to bring. Maybe this is the mind again wanting to grab and hold on to something, but nevertheless it seems that the human condition...
Krishnamurti: Sir, we looked at those hills, you couldn't change that, you just looked; and you looked inwardly and the battle began. For a moment you looked without that battle, without that strife, and all the rest of it. Then you remembered the beauty of that moment, of that second, and you wanted to capture that beauty again. Wait sir! Proceed. So what happens? It sets up another conflict: the thing you had and you would like to have again, and you don't know how to get it again. You know, if you think about it, it is not the same, it is not that. So you strive, battle. "I must control, I mustn't want" - right? Whereas if you say, "All right, it is over, finished", that moment is over.
Needleman: I have to learn that.
Krishnamurti: No, no.
Needleman: I have to learn, don't I?
Krishnamurti: What is there to learn?
Needleman: I have to learn the futility of this conflict.
Krishnamurti: No. What is there to learn? You yourself see that that moment of beauty becomes a memory, then the memory says, "It was so beautiful I must have it again." You are not concerned with beauty, you are concerned with the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure and beauty don't go together. So if you see that, it is finished. Like a dangerous snake, you won't go near it again.
Needleman: (Laughs) Perhaps I haven't seen it, so I can't say.
Krishnamurti: That is the question.
Needleman: Yes, I think that must be so, because one keeps going back again and again.
Krishnamurti: No. This is the real thing. If I see the beauty of that light, and it is really extraordinarily beautiful, I just see it. Now with that same quality of attention I want to see myself. There is a moment of perception which is as beautiful as that. Then what happens?
Needleman: Then I wish for it.
Krishnamurti: Then I want to capture it, I want to cultivate it, I want to pursue it.
Needleman: And how to see that?
Krishnamurti: Just to see that is taking place is enough.
Needleman: That's what I forget!
Krishnamurti: It is not a question of forgetting.
Needleman: Well, that is what I don't understand deeply enough. That just the seeing is enough.
Krishnamurti: Look, sir. When you see a snake what takes place?
Needleman: I am afraid.
Krishnamurti: No. What takes place? You run, kill it, do something. Why? Because you know it is dangerous. You are aware of the danger of it. A cliff, better take a cliff, an abyss. You know the danger of it. Nobody has to tell you. You see directly what would happen.
Needleman: Right.
Krishnamurti: Now, if you see directly that the beauty of that moment of perception cannot be repeated, it is over. But thought says, "No, it's not over, the memory of it remains." So what are you doing now? You are pursuing the dead memory of it, not the living beauty of it - right? Now if you see that, the truth of it - not the verbal statement, the truth of it - it is finished.
Needleman: Then this seeing is much rarer than we think.
Krishnamurti: If I see the beauty of that minute, it is over. I don't want to pursue it. If I pursue it, it becomes a pleasure. Then if I can't get it, it brings despair, pain and all the rest of it. So I say, "All right, finished." Then what takes place?
Needleman: From my experience, I'm afraid that what takes place is that the monster is born again. It has a thousand lives. (Laughter)
Krishnamurti: No sir. When did that beauty take place?
Needleman: The place when I saw without trying to change.
Krishnamurti: When the mind was completely quiet.
Needleman: Yes.
Krishnamurti: Wasn't it? Right?
Needleman: Yes.
...Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Continue to next part...
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