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Krishnamurti
The Role Of The Teacher
Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Jacob Needleman
...continued from part one
Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Krishnamurti: So I have to understand my greed. What am I greedy for? Is it because I am fed up with this world, I have had women, I have had cars, I have had money and I want something more?
Needleman: I think one is greedy because one desires stimulation, to be taken out of oneself, so that one doesn't see the poverty of oneself. But what I am trying to ask - I know you have answered this question many times in your talks, but it keeps recurring, almost unavoidably - the great traditions of the world, aside from what has become of them (they have become distorted and misinterpreted and deceptive) always speak directly or indirectly of help. They say "The guru is yourself too", but at the same time there is help.
Krishnamurti: Sir, you know what that word "guru" means?
Needleman: No, not exactly.
Krishnamurti: The one who points. That is one meaning. Another meaning is the one who brings enlightenment, lifts your burden. But instead of lifting your burden they impose their burden on you.
Needleman: I am afraid so.
Krishnamurti: Guru also means one who helps you to cross over - and so on, there are various meanings. The moment the guru says he knows, then you may be sure he doesn't know. Because what he knows is something past, obviously. Knowledge is the past. And when he says he knows, he is thinking of some experience which he has had, which he has been able to recognize as something great, and that recognition is born out of his previous knowledge, otherwise he couldn't recognize it, and therefore his experience has its roots in the past. Therefore it is not real.
Needleman: Well, I think that most knowledge is that.
Krishnamurti: So why do we want any form of ancient or modern tradition in all this? Look, sir, I don't read any religious, philosophical, psychological books: one can go into oneself at tremendous depths and find out everything. To go into oneself is the problem, how to do it. Not being able to do it one asks, "Would you please help me?"
Needleman: Yes.
Krishnamurti: And the other fellow says, "I'll help you" and pushes you off somewhere else.
Needleman: Well, it sort of answers the question. I was reading a book the other day which spoke of something called "Sat-san".
Krishnamurti: Do you know what it means?
Needleman: Association with the wise.
Krishnamurti: No, with good people.
Needleman: With good people, Ah!
Krishnamurti: Being good you are wise. Not, being wise you are good.
Needleman: I understand that.
Krishnamurti: Because you are good, you are wise.
Needleman: I am not trying to pin this down to something, but I find my students and I myself, speaking for myself, when we read, when we hear you, we say, "Ah! I need no one, I need to be with no one" - and there is a tremendous deception in this too.
Krishnamurti: Naturally, because you are being influenced by the speaker.
Needleman: Yes. That is true. (Laughter)
Krishnamurti: Sir, look, let's be very simple. Suppose, if there were no book, no guru, no teacher, what would you do? One is in turmoil, confusion, agony, what would you do? With nobody to help you, no drugs, no tranquilizers, no organized religions, what would you do?
Needleman: I can't imagine what I would do.
Krishnamurti: That's it.
Needleman: Perhaps there would be a moment of urgency there.
Krishnamurti: That's it. We haven't the urgency because we say, "Well, somebody is going to help me."
Needleman: But most people would be driven insane by that situation.
Krishnamurti: I am not sure, sir.
Needleman: I'm not sure either.
Krishnamurti: No, I am not at all sure. Because what have we done up to now? The people on whom we have relied, the religions, the churches, education, they have led us to this awful mess. We aren't free of sorrow, we aren't free of our beastliness, our ugliness, our vanities.
Needleman: Can one say that of all of them? There are differences. For every thousand deceivers there is one Buddha.
Krishnamurti: But that is not my concern, sir, if we say that is leads to such deception. No, no.
...Excerpt from The Awakening of Intelligence
Continue to next part...
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