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Meditation
What Is Meditation?
Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Allan W. Anderson
...continued from part four
Krishnamurti: Am I awake? Or is the past so alive that it is dictating my life in the present? Therefore I am asleep.
Anderson: Would you say that again? It's very important.
Krishnamurti: I don't know how, I'll put it differently. Am I awake? Is my mind burdened with the past? And therefore, bearing a burden, I'm not awake to the present.
Anderson: Not awake in the present, exactly.
Krishnamurti: Not awake as I am talking.
Anderson: That's right.
Krishnamurti: Because I'm talking from the background of my past, of my experience, of my failures, my hurts, my depressions, therefore the past is dominating and putting me to sleep now.
Anderson: To sleep. It's a narcotic.
Krishnamurti: Narcotic. Therefore what am I to do with the past? You follow, sir?
Anderson: Yes, I do. Yes, yes, yes.
Krishnamurti: Past is necessary.
Anderson: Of course, yes, the whole field of knowledge.
Krishnamurti: Knowledge. Past is necessary. But when the past covers the present, then I am asleep. So is it possible to know what the past is and not let it overflow into the present? That question, and the reality of it, brings its own discipline. Therefore I say, yes, I know what it means. I can live, I can keep awake totally and widely and yet operate in the field of knowledge. So there is no contradiction. I don't know if I am conveying anything?
Anderson: Oh you are. You are, you are.
Krishnamurti: So both are moving in harmony. One doesn't lag behind the other. One doesn't contradict the other. There's balance.
Anderson: Well, what I am seeing here, if I am following correctly is, on the one hand we have knowledge, and the grasp of its necessity with respect to know-how in practical affairs.
Krishnamurti: Of course.
Anderson: On the other hand we have seeing, understanding. And the act of meditation is the nexus...
Krishnamurti: That's right, sir.
Anderson: ...between them so that there is no interruption of flow in the activity...
Krishnamurti: That's right.
Anderson: ...of understanding and knowing.
Krishnamurti: That is part of meditation.
Anderson: Of course.
Krishnamurti: You follow?
Anderson: Yes.
Krishnamurti: See what is taking place. Then what is sleep? I have understood now what is means to be awake. That means I am watching. I am aware. I am aware without any choice, choiceless awareness, watching, looking, observing, hearing, what is going on inside and what is going on outside, what people tell me, whether they flatter me, or they insult me. I am watching. So I am very aware. Now, what is sleep? I know what is sleep: resting, shutting your eyes, going to bed at 9 or 10 or later. What is sleep? And in sleep, dreams. What are dreams? I don't know what the others say. I am not interested in what the others say. You follow, sir? Because my enquiry is to find out whether meditation covers the whole field of life, not just one segment.
Anderson: My inquiry is from the point where I say, "I don't know".
Krishnamurti: I don't know. That is right. So I'll proceed. I dream. There are dreams. What are dreams? Why should I dream? So I have to find out why I dream. What are dreams? Dreams are the continuation of my daily sleep, which means I have not understood my daily life. I watch my daily life. My daily life is in disorder; so I go to sleep and the disorder continues. And the brain says, "I must have order otherwise I can't function". So if the mind doesn't put order during the day, the brain tries to bring order during the night.
Anderson: Through the dream.
Krishnamurti: Through the dreams, through intimations. When I awake I say, "Yes I have a certain feeling this must be done". So, see what takes place. When the mind is awake during the day it has order, it establishes order, in the sense we have discussed previously.
Anderson: Yes. In that sense of order.
Krishnamurti: Order which comes out of the understanding of disorder. The negation of disorder is order, not the following of a blueprint.
Anderson: No.
Krishnamurti: Or a pattern, all that's disorder. So during the day, the mind, the brain has established order. So when I sleep the brain isn't working out how to establish order in itself in order to be secure. Therefore the brain becomes rested.
Anderson: I see.
Krishnamurti: Therefore the brain becomes quiet, sleeps without dreams. It may have superficial dreams when you eat wrongly, you know, all that kind of thing. That I am not talking about. So, sleep means regeneration of the brain.
Continue to next part...
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