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Meditation
What Is Meditation?
Conversation between Jiddu Krishnamurti
& Professor Allan W. Anderson
...continued from part three
Anderson: That's marvellous. Start with freedom and not with their burden. This business of holding up fragmentation to us from that perspective is really nothing more than a species of journalism.
Krishnamurti: Journalism, absolutely.
Anderson: Isn't it. Yes, yes.
Krishnamurti: Propaganda.
Anderson: Of course, yes.
Krishnamurti: Therefore, lie. So I discard all that. So I have no burden. Therefore the mind is free to enquire what is meditation?
Anderson: Marvellous.
Krishnamurti: I have done this. You follow, sir? It is not verbal expressions. I don't say anything which I haven't lived.
Anderson: Oh that's very, very obvious to me as one sitting here conversing with you. Yes.
Krishnamurti: I won't. That is hypocrisy. I am not interested in all that. I'm really interested in seeing what is meditation. So I start - one starts with this freedom. And freedom means freeing the mind, emptying itself of the burdens of others, their methods, their systems, their acceptance of authority, their beliefs, their hope, because its part of me, all that. Therefore I discard all that. And now I start by saying, I don't know what meditation is. I start. That means the mind is free, has this sense of great humility. Not knowing I'm not asking. Then somebody will fill it.
Anderson: Exactly.
Krishnamurti: Some book, some scholar, some professor, some psychologist comes along and says, "You don't know. Here, I know. I'll give it to you." I say, "Please don't." I know nothing. You know nothing either. Because you are repeating what others have said. So I discard all that. Now I begin to enquire. I'm in a position to enquire. Not to achieve a result, not to arrive at what they call enlightenment. Nothing. I don't know if there is enlightenment or not. I start with this feeling of great humility, not knowing, therefore my mind, the mind is capable of real enquiry. So I enquire. First of all I look at my life, because I said in the beginning meditation implies covering the whole field of my life, of life. My life, our life, is first the daily conscious living. I've examined it. I have looked at it. There is contradiction and so on, as we've been taking about. And also there is the question of sleep. I go to sleep, eight, nine, ten hours. What is sleep? I start not knowing. Not what others have said. You follow, sir?
Anderson: Yes, I do.
Krishnamurti: I'm enquiring in relation to meditation which is the real spirit of religion. That is, gathering all the energy to move from one dimension to a totally different dimension. Which doesn't mean divorced from this dimension.
Anderson: No, it's not like those monks going up the hill, no.
Krishnamurti: I've been up those hills.
Anderson: Yes.
Krishnamurti: So, what is sleep? And what is waking? Am I awake? Or, I am only awake when there is a crisis, when there is a shock, when there is a challenge, when there is an incident, death, discord, failure. You follow? Or am I awake all the time, in waking during the daytime. So what is it to be awake? You follow sir?
Anderson: Yes, I am, I am. Since you are saying that meditation must permeate, obviously, to be awake cannot be episodic.
Krishnamurti: That's it. Cannot be episodic. Cannot be something stimulating.
Anderson: Can't be described as peak experiences.
Krishnamurti: No, no. Any form of stimulation, external or internal only implies that you are asleep and you need a stimulant, whether it is coffee, sex, or a tranquilliser. All keep you awake.
Anderson: Have a shot to go to sleep and have a shock to wake up.
Krishnamurti: So, in my enquiry I am asking, am I awake? What does it mean to be awake? Not awake to what is happening politically, economically, socially, that is obvious. But awake. What does it mean? I am not awake if I have any burden. There is no sense of being awake when there is any kind of fear. If I live with an illusion, if my actions are neurotic, there is no state of being awake. So I'm enquiring and I can only enquire by becoming very sensitive to what is happening in me, outside me. So is the mind aware during the day completely to what is happening inside, outside of me.
Anderson: Upon every instant.
Krishnamurti: That's it. Otherwise I am not awake.
Anderson: I was just thinking about something that has always given me a great sense of wonder. At home we have some birds and, of all things, a cat too.
Krishnamurti: Of course.
Anderson: But they love one another. That is to say, the birds don't run around in the room with the cat, but the cat supervises the birds. When the birds are put to bed in the evening the cat goes into that room and stays with them, maybe an hour or two, watches. Just seems to have the feeling that it must look after the birds. And in the day time, I've often watched the cat sit and look at the birds with an immense intensity, and the ordinary reaction is, "Well for heaven's sake, haven't you seen them before? What is this everlasting intensity?" But she's looking.
Krishnamurti: That's right, sir.
Anderson: And her eyes are always with that jewel-like...
Krishnamurti: ...clarity.
Anderson: ...intensity and clarity. Cleaner than flame. And it never stops. And when she sleeps, she really sleeps. When you asked me what is sleep, there must be a relation between the wonder that we feel for the cat's ability completely to sleep. And when she awakes she's completely awake.
Krishnamurti: That's right, sir. So in asking and enquiring what is sleep, I must also ask what it is to be awake.
Continue to next part...
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